I first did my version of "Atkins" back in 2003. Lost about 25 lbs and let it all go to my head. You can guess what happened. Fast forward to January 2006 and I started "the diet" again. I am a member of another message board that does try to take a by the book approach and for the most part does. Lately I'm a little bit frustrated with those "CLR" types who want coddling instead of frankness. I'm also a bit frustrated with my own low-carb "laziness". Oh, I got side tracked there...sorry. This time around I've got the "for life" mind set. This isn't a "diet" that I'll go "off" when I'm done. You see, in some ways I am "done" because I did make the goal I'd originally set in 01/2006. I've gone from 268 lbs to 185 lbs (I'm 5'10"). It's taken me over a year to take off the last 10 lbs and I wobble between 185 and 191 these days.

When I look in the mirror, I realize that even at 185 lbs, I can stand to lose more. I still have a little belly and I still have very fat thighs, and a little still on my hips. I had my body fat percentage measured via BodPod (air displacement) in April and it was 33%. I'd like to get to 25% body fat.

I am pretty proud of the things I've accomplished while low carbing...and probably BECAUSE of low carbing. July 2006 I quit smoking. August 2006 I started running. Today I'm a slightly overweight non-smoker, and a regular runner.

What I'm not proud of is that I took up coffee drinking and have battled that monster for the last year. After reading here I truly face the fact that the coffee is not 100% the problem. It's the cream and artificial sweetener. My methadone. Coffee is just the conveyance. Black coffee...I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Cream and sweetner is the problem.

Where I need help is tightening things up. Facing my truths (your site has helped me gather my thoughts and take a closer (real) look at some things):
I need to eliminate the creamer/sweetner. I probably should eliminate dairy altogether. I did have a binge on it last week (cottage cheese, greek yogurt and sour cream). I threw it all out except for the heavy cream for the coffee. That will be going down the drain tonight. There are more truths I need to face and get them all down here, but that will have to wait for another day as I'm quite tired.

After more reading here on this site, I realize that I haven't been doing "Atkins" properly. I need to clean that up first before I get more drastic. So, my first order of business this morning was to go to the grocery and restock my fridge with the types of foods that, while not convenient, are much better for me. Turkey, pork, ground beef, chicken. Zucchini, asparagus, cucumber, jicama, peppers, tomatoes, onions, cilantro, broccoli, greens, spinach, etc.

I should have picked up some of the winter squashes...but then again, I can add those in next week perhaps. Acorn is my favorite.

Breakfast this morning was 2 large chicken wings and shredded slaw with olive oil and sea salt.

Lunch was 2 large chicken wings (I made a batch of them the other day) and jicama.

Dinner is going to be turkey and roasted asparagus. I'm using fitday to record everything.

One of my biggest problems is keeping my protein from getting too high....lightbulb moment...more veggies. *DUH, JOY*

That's what I'm here for, new things to learn so that I can get down to the 25% body fat that I want and have freedom from the mood swings from low blood sugar.

And, as for the acorn squash. I've only eaten 2 of the squash ever. They aren't a trigger food for me. However, in light of housekeeping, I'll just use pumpkin.

I'm trying Adele's suggestion for the "CRL's" of instead of induction to really push the veggies at 35-40 net carbs. Pretty much the only way I know to do this is to use high carb vegetables. Jicama, pumpkin, broccoli are some of the ones that immediately come to mind. All are good fiber choices too. And, I'm restricting dairy and nuts since those food groups DO cause issues for me and alcohol since I'm not a big drinker, and grains because i retain fluids big time when I add them. That leaves vegetables, berries, fruits, legumes and the starchy vegetables for me to eat from.

If I'm limiting dairy and I want to have fruits, what types of fats could I eat with the fruit? Olive oil with fruit just isn't appealing at all.

You are at the best place where I feel this specialized forum can offer some assistance. That is, the place of having lost all or almost all of your weight, the place where it can get a lot more challenging, both physically and emotionally, than we ever expected. It is also a time of making a whole lot more adjustments than we ever expected we’d have to make, as you say “tightening up” a bit, instead of what we expected—to be able to, at least sometimes, go more loosey goosey with the food.

I would strongly encourage you to set a signature, and start posting your actual weight here. No, it’s not a perfect measure, but it’s the best way I’ve noticed, after more than 10 years on internet lowcarb forums, for people to be as real and truthful as they possibly can, to be accountable mostly to themselves for what their results really are (or are not). Lowcarb flounderers generally begin playing games with numbers, with the truth, if not from the get-go, certainly they do when things start getting dicey.

Where you are in this journey is about as dicey as the journey gets. Could you just trust me on that? Hard as it is for me to admit my weight is up, I am very glad I still do.

I will look forward to your updates Joy. Also, would it be okay with you if I change the name of your thread to “Joy’s Journey”?

Adele (143 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 10+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

The last time I saw that weight written in my journal was 6/11/07. (I have a journal that I write down my weight and measurements every tuesday since 1/2/06). I *DO* weigh every single day, but only write it down on Tuesdays. I'll start keeping my weight in my signature today.

The more I read here, the more I see how critical this time is, and I do NOT want to undo all the hard work I've done. I really like the approach that you take here and look forward to making the changes in my way of eating and the changes in my body PERMANENT!

The other area that I've been slacking is in exercise. Particularly strength training. The reason for this is when I strength train, the scale has a tendency to go up. I quit strength training in order to see the weight on the scale go down. That defeats what I want--which is to be smaller or less fat. So, my new goal is to reduce my body fat to 25%. In order to do this, I MUST strength train. I started back last night. I'm definitely feeling it today which means tomorrow I might crack my head on the bathroom wall as I fall trying to sit down.....Cardio is fine. I run 3-7 miles 3-4 times a week, but I do want to return to Interval training for maximumm fat loss. I'm all about efficiency.

would it be okay with you if I change the name of your thread to “Joy’s Journey”?
Yes! :)

Joy
SW 268
CW 185.8
GW 185 changed to 25% body fat--whatever that might weigh.

Last Edited on 21-Aug-2007 6:02 AM

Why would you need to have any fat with fruit? If you eat it with a meal, which is probably the best way if you want to include it at this point in the journey, the fat from the meal would suffice. Naked is probably best anyway. Perhaps your old fruit eating was also conduit for cream?

Adele (143 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 10+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

I'm perfectly fine with just eating a piece of fruit or high carb veggie or whatever without it. I just thought that was what we are supposed to do.

Yes Joy, I have seen that advice, and of course since it comes from Dr. A himself, I wouldn’t summarily reject it.

But over the years, and with each new update of the book before his death, I noted Dr. Atkins also seemed increasingly perplexed by the strong and puzzling (to him anyway) patterns of so many of his patients—those who did so much better physically and psychologically when following his program who nonetheless returned, many of them over and over, to their old bad patterns. In later incarnations of the book he even began noting and warning of “induction abuse” in such patients.

Like others who mean well but can’t grasp what’s really going on, perhaps because they’ve not experienced the deeper levels of physiological and emotional entanglement, I noticed Atkins trying to help them with INFORMATION, thinking surely that’s what we must be lacking. Not unlike the well-meaning folks who tried to tell us to “just eat less and exercise more.” Yeah, that was all we needed.

Information wasn’t what I was missing. I knew the rules. That’s not what thwarted me for so long, and I’d wager anyone with a thread here would acknowledge the same has been true for them.

I have an essay on the site about fruit: Fruit and the Lowcarb Diet

I think it’s a particularly bad idea for CRLs, especially someone like you who hasn’t quite gotten everything out of lowcarb you would like to get, to use fruit as a snack, because it’s sweet, it causes cravings in quite a few of us, and it can insidiously reignite the pattern of “I want a SWEET snack”. I think that when you are to the bodyfat percentage you want, that would be a better time to very carefully test how your body responds to that. I think that carrots and winter squashes, and sometimes small quantities of plain yam (especially if you exercise HARD), would be better choices. But if you still think you want to eat any fruit now, I’d include it with meals that already have fat.

Linda of this board is a long-termer who is doing great, who has found she can eat some fruit daily (fresh, not dried, right Linda?), especially if she foregoes dairy, you might want to pay attention to her thread. Connie and Elizabeth are two who struggle each time they try inching it back in. I quit trying to eat it at all back in June 2000, and I now see the point when I just stopped trying to include “legal” fruit (strawberries, it was) as being when I finally Surrendered and came to peace with what works better for my snowflake-body, not exactly what was the information in the book.

Also, as I mention in the article about building a better diet for CRLs, I would not recommend avocado, especially for the last layer, as it is a special category food. They tend to be moldy, and most anyone with yeast in the picture tends not to do well with it (or any other special category food). The last layer very very often includes candida issues.

Adele (143 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 10+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

Last Edited on 21-Aug-2007 1:37 PM

The last few days since I've been here, I've been having 35-40 net carbs a day with only 2-3 of them coming from anything except vegetables (eggs usually). My weight is going down again...and I've recommitted to strength training. My muscles are incredibly sore today and I really expected the scale to be UP because of it. I was very surprised when it was down again. My dragon is getting drowsy, but not completely asleep yet. It's getting there though, and that's what is important.

One of your essays you talk about how the grumbling of the dragon manifests itself not in cravings but in bad attitude. Boy, is that me! I get soooooo bent out of shape about the most stupid things and then completely overreact. That's my emotional immaturity exacerbated by low blood sugar and food intolerance. This is something I've got to work on...the emotional immaturity. I can start by getting my food and blood sugar completely under control.

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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 185.8
GW - 25% body fat

Last Edited on 22-Aug-2007 10:01 AM

I believe we emotionally entangled food addicts really have to lead with the baseline physical truth of our addiction. Similar to alcoholics or crack-heads, for us problem foods (very often not just sugar and “carbs” but also “borderline” foods sometimes referred to as Lowcarb Methadone) change our emotional foundation, which can affect our decision-making abilities. They can help push us to follow our impulses and be “stupid”.

Sure you might be getting ahead of yourself with the fruit...and there might even a subtle clue to be had from the fact that’s the direction your drowsy dragon is pushing your thinking. You’ll have time to figure that out later, I promise.

This is all your body, your science experiment, as someone on a long-ago list used to be fond of saying. Given your journey and your current (totally realistic) goals, I think you would be wisest to stick with what you’re doing now, it’s the most likely avenue to where you say you would like to nudge your body.

I hope you’ll keep us posted Joy.

Adele (142 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 10+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

Yes but... (wink) Joy, it’s also fairly likely to take you some places that you didn’t expect, it’s likely to take you to some raw, new emotional places if you are an emotionally entangled food user. Striking my best drama-queen pose: It will lead you to coming undone, to going a little—or a lot--crazy.

That’s the rub, this is what I believe the years-long retrofitting stage is all about. That is, of course, assuming you will continue to (steady, steady, steady) lead yourself through it with the simple diet instead of returning to bargaining back in the old foods/patterns which, if you cut through all the clutter/chatter of generalist lowcarb forums, is the truth about what the vast majority of successes-with-the-diet eventually do at some point in the journey.

If instead you abide your way through this loooong period, you’ll slowly build stronger, more mature emotional skills to handle the inevitable emotional ups and down of life.

Minor changes with DRASTIC results.

This is also fairly typical of the initial results of gold standard, there is usually an initial whoosh as your body shows its gratitude, and an accompanying euphoria, a “eureka I’ve found the secret!” There is a honeymoon with this stage too. Enjoy it, sure, just be aware that it will pass. A lot of this is about the “DRASTIC” (vs. slow, boring) that we are, individually and as a culture, sorta hooked on. Drama.

Wish I'd found this place a lot sooner. But then again, maybe I needed that time of, while not failing, certainly not getting anywhere fast. Know what I mean?

Yes, I think I do know what you mean.
Ambivalence After Getting to Goal
The Value of Stalling

Adele (141 this morning)

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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 10+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

Last Edited on 23-Aug-2007 7:24 AM

I get what you're saying though.

Today was a good day. Need some help with the types of fats to add into my diet. When I was eating cheese, this wasn't such a problem. Now, all I can seem to come up with is butter, mayonnaise and olive oil. Avocado, but I'm going to take it easy on that for a while.

I've got the carbs (veggies) down, I'm a little high on protein--percentage-wise, but that's because I'm low on fats and my calories are a tad too low (once again because I need more fats).

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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 185.8
GW - 25% body fat

The best fats for most highly reactive bodies seem to be the “boring” ones—unprocessed meat fats and unprocessed (cold pressed) bottled oils, such as olive, grapeseed, and perhaps true nut oils.

I agree with Nikki—your best bet is to choose higher-fat meats and add oils/meat drippings to your salads and cooked vegetables.

My body does its absolute best with nothing but meat fats. No, in the real world I can’t stick to that 100%, but I strongly suspect that one of the reasons why I’m doing especially well now is that I have been able to almost stay off any other kind of fat for the last 5-6 weeks, I’ve only had a bit of oil about 3 times since I decided to drop it for a while.

Adele (141 this morning)
----------
168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 10+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

Last Edited on 24-Aug-2007 3:34 AM

So, two days I had cheese. Saturday and Sunday. Other than that, everything I had to eat (and drink) was on my plan. Everything since than has been perfect.

The other theory is that I am retaining water. It could be premenstrual, exercise, stress or a response from a big drop in weight. I have had a very stressful week last week and this.

The good thing is that I've been fairly calm through things that would have sent me off on an emotional tear just a few weeks ago. This is really good. I've also been faithful to myself by "showing up" for exercise that i promised myself I would do. I have been getting up in the mornings and exercising. My muscles are feeling it.

I don't know for sure that cheese (once it was pre-packaged cheese and once it was fresh swiss) is for sure a problem for me. Do I wait until I get back to losing again and test it one more time, or do I say to myself "Yes, cheese is a DEFINITELY a problem"?

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Joy (185.0 today)
SW - 268
CW - 185.8
GW - 25% body fat

Joy, when you’re eating really clean, as you were before your weekend failure-to-plan incident, your reactions to “borderline” foods (like cheese and processed meats for CRLs) are not necessarily stronger, but clearer, and thus easier to read.

My vote is the cheese and processed crappola. It will take your body sometime to readjust, assuming you stay clean. You are in a time of transition, not unlike Arlene. Go gently, mindfully.

“Never discount the physical” ... my mentor, Patricia

Adele (142 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 10+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

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Joy 184 today
SW - 268
CW - 184
GW - 25% body fat

The addict in me is starting to relent with the cravings and focusing elsewhere. Weighing and measuring and preparing foods and exercise. Is this better? To channel that obsessiveness into healthy behaviors? Or, is it just as bad?

I attended a Yoga class for the first time this morning. It really felt good. I haven't been very good about stretching, so I think this yoga class will be good for me in that regard.
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Joy (183.4 today)
SW - 268
CW - 183.4
GW - 185 or 25% body fat

I don’t think it’s good or bad, but I do think it’s a normal and important part of the process. See The Obsessiveness Trait With Weight Loss and Dang That Dr. Phil (about how the weight loss part of the journey, for me anyway, for a long time became a separate kind of substitute obsession, before the psychological stuff started bubbling up and out.)

Adele (143 this morning)

P.S. I apologize to all for being behind on posting here, especially on the more philosophical issues that take me considerable time to formulate responses to, like Suzie and Arlene. My work crunch will be over about September 12-14 and like Arnold, I will be back!

Last Edited on 4-Sep-2007 3:17 PM

Since I've stopped my supplements, I'm retaining water (despite drinking in excess of 150 ounces a day), getting "backed up" and getting cramps in my legs and feet at night. Fun. NOT.

Dr said that were it not for the dizziness/light headedness he would chalk the low pulse/blood pressure up to athletic conditioning. I wonder if that could be the case and the light headedness is low blood sugar?

In the meantime, he said for me to continue exercise because it gets my heart rate up. So, I've been running (4 miles most days and 8 miles on the weekend) and weight training and doing yoga. I exercise every day. I've been consuming between 1600-1800 calories most days. I wonder if that is not enough? Yet I'm scared to eat more.

It's like just about the time it starts to work again, it stops and my weight jumps up again. I can't really pinpoint what I'm doing right, what I'm doing wrong.
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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 183
GW - 25% body fat

Joy, I don’t know what your BMR is, but with the kinds and amount of exercise you’re doing, I strongly suspect you DO need to eat more, probably 300-500 calories more. I know you want to get to a lower bodyfat percentage, but I’m just wondering if the amount of exercise you’re currently doing isn’t a little unnecessarily extreme. I’m wondering if you could slow it down and exercise moderately (say, about half the amount you are doing now), and see where that, along with a cleaner, more mindful lowcarb diet, slowly, gently takes you over a few months.

I smell a sledge hammer here? I note that you’ve made a whole lot of fairly drastic changes really fast. That strikes me as a kind of escalation, and that can be a sign that the diet (in this case, cleaner lowcarb) is “getting to you” emotionally. I’m not trying to make light or help explain what might be going on with you medically, not at all, but with or without that, I do think you might be pushing too hard in an attempt to get something unpleasant over and done with (which isn’t what is ever going to happen). Is that ringing true?

Please start eating a little more and please let us know how this health situation plays out for you.

Adele (142 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 10+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

My BMR is 1624. My average calories for the past month is 1733. So, that's 100-150 less than what I should be eating according to your recommendations. I'm thinking I need to increase that to 1924 at minimum, still staying with the same foods I've been eating. (meats, vegetables, butter and olive oil, occasional mayo or ranch dressing).

It is possible that I'm becoming more "hyper" about my weight loss. I do want to get to a place where it just "is". But I also want to be able to test foods to know specifically which ones I can and cannot have. Until I can get a consistent losing streak going without any health or exercise or things like that, I can't test foods to see how my body reacts. I can't tell if it's the food, or if its the exercise or if its a supplement or a medication or what else.
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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 185.8
GW - 25% body fat

Joy, I really think I know how you feel, and maybe I’m wrong and maybe this won’t even help you, but I think you’re going to find that this isn’t going to work quite the way you want it to, even when you get your bodyfat percentage where you want it. Or maybe what I’m saying is that I think it’s unlikely you’ll get to that place nearly as quickly and directly as you would like.

I DO relate. When I was at the place you are now (the last part of the summer of 1999) I decided I was tired to death of spinning my wheels and fooling around trying different things like cutting calories, eliminating arachadonic acid containing foods—which was the theory of the day—eliminating nuts, dairy, etc. I decided I just wanted to take the express route to goal, to just GET there, and THEN figure out what my body needed (in the way of carbs/foods, that is) to stay there. I figured (very wrongly, lol) that the express route to goal would be to eat ZERO carbs until I got there. That seems similar to the way you are feeling now? I did that for 8 weeks, ate nothing but unprocessed meats, and of course I lost zilch and ended up only with constipation to show for that trouble. Then we went on a vacation to California (I live in Ohio) where it was impossible to keep up the no-veggie thing, and I came home having lost several pounds thanks, I’m sure, from adding veggies back.

I suppose now I am to a place where in many ways, it just “is” (as you put it), but honestly that took about 3-4 years after getting to goal, and my body is still ever-so-slowly changing what it tolerates, what it likes and dislikes. Bodies are, after all, living/changing things. I also sense from re-reading your first post, that you are anxious (maybe somewhat like Arlene?) to just get any emotional unpleasantness over and done with. In addicted eaters it generally doesn’t work that way, it is an arduously slow process of growing/changing. Abiding. After we figure out what our body needs from us, we have to sort of re-work, sort of let the rest of our life (including the people closest to us) fall and settle in around that; that takes time, you can’t rush that.

I guess most of this doesn’t matter right now, just make sure you eat enough and, for goodness sakes don’t go zero carb like I did (I know you won’t), and see how your body likes the adjustments you’ve been making. Please let us know how your current health problem pans out, it sounds a little scary. Also Joy, I’m curious...how old are you? (I’m 57)

Adele (141 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 10+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

Well, yes I do want to just get there, but not at the expense of my carbs in the form of vegetables. Everywhere in my life I recognize problem areas and find solutions. Make everything happen efficiently. So, yes, I'm trying to identify my problem and fix it. I'm a direct, cut to the chase, see a goal and do whatever needs to be done to do it. Can we say "control freak"?

I eat probably 65-70 total carbs with about 25-30 grams of fiber every day and love it (thanks to your site)!! I am having trouble keeping my fats high enough though and without dairy...I don't know how to do it. Olive oil is only going so far, bacon (because of processing) is limited. I'm trying not to use a lot of mayo. I do eat the skin on chicken and fatty cuts of meat. Trying to keep my protein from being too high often leaves me stumped.

I guess most of this doesn’t matter right now, just make sure you eat enough and, for goodness sakes don’t go zero carb like I did (I know you won’t), and see how your body likes the adjustments you’ve been making. Please let us know how your current health problem pans out, it sounds a little scary. Also Joy, I’m curious...how old are you? (I’m 57)

I promise not to go zero carb. I'm a bit anxious about what is going on with my health too, and I'll be sure to keep you updated. I'm 35 years old.

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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 185.8
GW - 25% body fat

I lost the water weight I was holding right away, and have since lost an additional 5 pounds. Not bad. Actually, it's excellent.

I've even lost some inches on the tape measure, and my size 12 clothing is getting loose. Won't be long and I'll be comfortably wearing size 10. This is smaller than I've been in my adult life. Heck, its smaller than I was as a teenager (of course, I was by most standards an overweight teenager).

Soon, I will be out of the overweight category on BMI charts.

I've got to remember to step back and look at the larger picture instead of focusing (and stressing) so much on the fact that my scale weight fluctuates. I don't know why all of a sudden this stress. I've weighed pretty much every single day for almost 2 years. Why all of a sudden I'm letting it get to me is disconcerting.

That escalating obsessiveness? Maybe it is "getting to me" Adele. I mean, physically my body feels really good. I'm pretty much FREE from the cravings at this point. Still trying to get more calories in some days I do good, others could be more. I haven't ever posted my fitday here.

http://fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJournals.html?Owner=ride2joy

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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 180.6
GW - 25% body fat

Right. I may be off-base here, but I think I hear the beginnings of something like...”gee, I thought I’d be feeling calmer, that I’d feel different about being here...I thought it would be all positive... I thought cravings gone = easy to do this forever.” It’s rarely that simple, it sure hasn’t been for me anyway.

Add this to what you said in an earlier post trying to explain yourself:

Well, yes I do want to just get there, but not at the expense of my carbs in the form of vegetables. Everywhere in my life I recognize problem areas and find solutions. Make everything happen efficiently. So, yes, I'm trying to identify my problem and fix it. I'm a direct, cut to the chase, see a goal and do whatever needs to be done to do it. Can we say "control freak"?

Again, I may be either premature or totally off base here, especially if it turns out your problems with food are merely physical, and that all you needed was a cleaner diet. Eureka, you’ve found it, you’re on your merry way. You go girl, take it and fly through the decades to come, right??

But if it turns out that you are more than physically addicted to the foods you’ve recently eliminated, you’re going to eventually grow surprisingly uncomfortable as time goes on following this rather spartan, boring regimen. You’ll waggle and pay, and then you’ll start getting all kinds of emotions about this. Because you didn’t realize that with that “efficient” trait of yours you’d also worked it out so food did double-duty for you, not only as sustenance, but as an effective feelings buffer/manager. (I’m efficient too, btw (wink)).

We control freaks especially dislike dealing with emotions, especially strong, unpleasant ones because emotions are like ocean waves, like clouds, they cannot BE controlled. What’s more, they really don’t need to be, but we’ve been attempting to do that for a long time, it’s a hard habit to break. Feelings merely need to be felt (there are lots of appropriate ways to do that) and abided. But add to that the fact that we mostly haven’t felt them (we pushed them down, numbed them away with food—and sometimes alcohol) for a long time, and suddenly we find ourselves feeling emotionally raw, naked. The abstinence required from us very often brings us into a whole new emotional ball game.

Why do I keep bringing this up? Because when the possibility was brought up to me, I scoffed and denied, believe me. But I turned out to be grateful that the possibility had been brought up on the forum I was on at the time because when it all hit me, I was ... well I was very thankful that I had heard this could happen because I think it helped me to persevere through it. Kind of like knowing you might get a fever after a flu shot (If only this fever only lasted a day or so!)

If it happens, there are things you can do besides eating it all back down—I think we HAVE to learn other ways or we will revert back to our old er, “controlling” habits—the ones that got us where we started. This is the retrofitting process, and failure to retrofit, in my opinion, is why so many weight-loss successes end up in regainland within a few years.

So carry on and keep reporting. Let’s see where you go, see which camp you end up falling into.

One more thing Joy...what happened with your recent BP and heart rate issues?

Adele (143 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 11+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

Last Edited on 18-Sep-2007 2:16 PM

I am an emotional/social eater. I eat when things are abundant in my life. When things are bad, I don't eat. When my first husband died (1996), I ate only to sustain and lost a lot of weight. As life righted itself I started eating again and the happier my life got, the heavier I got until my weight bothered me enough to do something about it.

As for the BP issues. I went back to the doctor this afternoon. The BP is still low even not taking my supplements. The thyroid tests came back normal. My pulse is still low as well. He gave me a referral to see a cardiologist. He said if it weren't for the fact that I'm having dizziness/light-headedness, he'd just say that it was good cardiovascular fitness from running. But, he wants me to see the cardiologist. So, tomorrow, I'll be calling and making an appointment.
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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 180.6
GW - 25% body fat

Last Edited on 18-Sep-2007 7:27 PM

That’s an interesting question Joy. I’m no expert, I don’t know what kind of expert would have an answer/opinion on this. But my gut-hunch response is “probably not,” especially were I a betting woman.

But as a way of exploring this question a bit more, I wonder, do you (or does anyone else) in the course of daily life spend much time preparing for or trying to prevent emotions that might come up? You say you eat when things are abundant in your life. I assume that means good, happy. Could or would you want to try to prevent yourself from getting too happy, prevent things from getting too abundant all at once? I can't imagine how in the world I would do that?

And, aren’t you expecting that, when you have achieved a better bodyfat percentage, you will be at least somewhat happier, more satisfied than you are now? In that way, won’t following this diet LEAD to a kind of abundance?

You might even view being on the restrictive eating plan you’re currently following as a NOT happy thing. It is sparse, not abundant. So, isn’t it possible that by following it you are holding yourself at least somewhat emotionally down, thereby helping to prevent a happy burst which would, theoretically, have you eating (or wanting to eat) crap? If so, then are you not finding that staying on this diet IS a way (a good way?) to keep yourself from getting too happy? (grin) I’d prefer the word “anchored” as opposed to “too happy” in this context.

Perhaps you’re not a seriously emotionally entangled eater, it might just be too early to know that about yourself. I’d refer you once again to Ambivalence After Getting to Goal, especially to the part where I quote an old post from my lowcarb mentor Patricia, who is/was not what I would term a seriously emotionally entangled eater. Patricia and I both—still—lead with the diet that is right for our bodies, We Don’t Cheat. (She has been at goal about a year longer than I have.) We both have learned, from our different perspectives, that going off this diet leads to unpleasant consequences we’d rather avoid.

The difference between us, I’d say, is that I have struggled a whole longer and harder with making the commitment to the diet permanent, I think I am/was much more that over-emotional 14-year-old I write about in Growing Up Emotionally. Patricia seemed, to me anyway, more direct and mature about this from the get-go, she saw and deeply appreciated the miracles that lowcarb brought to her body immediately and I suspect would have signed up to have her head examined had she ever seriously stepped away from all the rewards of the diet, which she hasn’t done BECAUSE the rewards are so good, so ABUNDANT.

I guess I’m saying it seemed just a little simpler for Patricia, but not easy for either of us. (Perhaps she’ll put it better in her own words someday.)

But mostly Joy, as we both have now observed, for now you’ll just have to continue to do the diet and see what happens—or doesn’t—to your emotions, including very little.

I hope you’ll keep us posted Joy.

Adele (142 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 11+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

Okay.

So, I've been salting my food a bit more. I added back some sugar free (yet sucralose sweetened) sport water that has electrolytes (sodium and potassium) on days that I run. He also told me that I could resume taking my supplements as he didn't feel it was making any difference one way or another, but if I felt they helped then to "go for it."

I had an "Ah-Ha" moment, or maybe a "Duh!" moment last week. I used to run in the evenings and then come home and have a large meal with my husband. Morning breakfast has always been "grab and go" (boiled eggs, jicama, peppers or something like that). About the same time I made changes to my diet (cutting out dairy...and subsequently calories, and eating more veggies), I started running in the MORNING. I didn't change my eating habits. I continued to eat a relatively small meal in the morning (about 250 calories) and about 700 calories in lunch and snacks. The rest of my calories came in the evening when I sat down to eat with my husband. Basically, I wasn't REFUELING my engine when it needed it. The dizziness, fatigue, crankiness ...and HUNGER was because of this (i think).

So, starting late last week I have made a conscious effort to eat more food in the morning and I have been feeling a lot better. I've also been eating about 2100 calories a day. No dizziness and I actually made it through an 8.75 mile run without stopping and without fatigue afterwards.

Over the weekend, however, I was in a social gathering that was centered around food. I ate some food products, though while low-carb, were grain based. I always, always bloat when I eat grain products. So, for a couple days I actually went UP 5 lbs on the scale. Today, I'm almost back down to where I'd been before. I also "binged" on chicken wings (about 16) and veggies. So, my calorie consumption was very high two days in a row (+2400). I can tell you that I felt very satisfied with that amount of food(calorie) intake without feeling "stuffed". In fact, I was satisfied enough that I was fine enough to skip dinner those nights.

Why did I eat that much food in this social setting? Because it was there. It wasn't emotional. Had the food gone out, I fixed a plate and then could have gotten away from it (either it being put away, or having an activity, or leaving it) I would have been fine. But, eating WAS the activity of this function. That, and socializing. The cake didn't bother me(and of course I didn't have any)...the chicken wings...MMMMM, oh yeah they bothered me. Maybe because I'd been eating 1700 calories, at that intake level I felt HUNGRY. I mean, belly growling hungry. Even eating 1900 calories a day I can still feel belly growling hungry. I realize that I most likely cannot eat 2400 calories a day and lose weight (or even maintain). But, my belly sure felt good.

Anyway, just wanted to drop in and let you know where I stood. Oh, yes...I have been losing inches again, and I even was able to fit into several pairs of size 10 dress slacks. So, I am making progress.

I've got to find that threshold where I'm eating enough calories to fuel my exercise, but not so many that I gain weight. My body fat continues to go down each week (according to my tanita bio-impedence scale).

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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 181.4
GW - 25% body fat

Last Edited on 3-Oct-2007 8:22 PM

I took a close look (with a spreadsheet I use) at the last 14 days of your Fitday, and I suspect you might be surprised at what I observed. You’re still consuming a lot of dairy foods (25% of your calories in that time period) and you are including what are extreme danger/dealbreaker foods that seem to turn lowcarbers into CRLs even in small amounts: especially alcohol and grain foods (Dreamfield’s pasta and a lowcarb tortilla).

Your mileage may vary, of course. But, I wouldn’t predict good weight loss from this, no matter what the carb/calorie levels. If you want better results from your efforts, I see much room for improvement in the quality of your food choices.

I’ll send you my summary sheet if you would like.

Adele (141 this morning)

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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 11+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

I am 179 today, I have been as low as 177 in the last few days. So, things are happening and I'm not stalling with what I've been doing. No emotional outbursts either from blood sugar instability (and there have been some BIG things going on in my life).

No binges this week since the party last weekend, either, where I ate the dreamfields pasta. That was one of the grain based products I referred to in my post earlier.

I have allowed cream cheese and half and half back into my diet. I do agree I need to be extremely MINDFUL of those foods. I can say that the grain and alcohol based products are things that I VERY rarely use in my diet and they DID cause me bloating/water retention, I am not as concerned about them (it will probably be MONTHS before i have either again). I am more concerned with my use of half and half in coffee AGAIN. I've got to STOP with that.

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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 179.4
GW - 25% body fat

If it's working, perhaps it ain't broke, perhaps as they say, it don't need no fixin'! I am glad to see that you have increased your calories from what you reported a few weeks ago. THAT part, for sure, is better than where you were, and clearly it hasn't hampered your progress--quite possibly just the opposite.

I hope you'll continue to keep us posted Joy.

Adele (142 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 11+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

I'm starting to fit into a lot more of size 10 clothing. This was one of my personal goals. To comfortably wear most clothes size 10. My waist is probably size 8 at 29". My butt and thighs, size 12-14. Boo. I bought a pair of Lucky Brand jeans today size 31x34 that fit perfect. Of course, they are low waist that are actually across my abdomen as opposed to my narrowest "waist". Still, I was excited to think I can wear clothing that is sold at Macy's in the Junior's department :)

I lost inches this week when I measured. It's been a long time since I saw inches lost (I have a spreadsheet from January 2006 with my weekly measurements). The exercise is working its magic, even if the scale isn't giving me a smaller number. That's something I've got to come to grips with. Rationally, I KNOW that smaller size is better than any number on the scale....Nor, as someone I know likes to say, is "there a weight requirement on the labels of our pants."

As for food, meats and vegetables are where it's at! No cheese this week. I have had some bacon used to season veggies (convenience) which probably contributes to some of the fluctuation on the scale. No cravings to speak of.

I am going to Seattle on Monday for a conference for the week. Looking forward to Pike Place Market and all the fresh seafood and produce. I'm taking some of those new steamer bags and plastic cookware so that I can cook food in my hotel room. I've requested a special meal at the convention...we'll see what they come up with. However, I'm fully prepared to have to get my own food too.

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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 179.8
GW - 25% body fat

What an interesting statement Joy. Wanna explore it?

Would you like to expound on what you mean by you just have to learn to breathe?

Adele (143 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 11+ years
Maintaining at goal 7+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

Last Edited on 24-Oct-2007 6:18 AM

I just went to my FitToGether.net account and realized that I've lost almost 7 lbs in the last month and a half. That is a lot of weight to lose for someone at my stage of the game. Yet, there is another part of me that wants that "magic number" (set by my own standards--and maybe those stupid BMI charts) of 175. There even is a part of me that is already thinking maybe go down to 168 just to make it an even 100 lbs lost.

I think I'll just stop here and we can discuss it a little. My trip to Seattle went okay. I did allow in some of the borderline stuff again (half n half, a few nuts, a few berries, and apple a couple times). I reined it all back in fairly quickly though (the very next day). I was 177 on the scale this morning.

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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 177.0 today
GW - 25% body fat

It sounds to me like, by staying “on the diet for” for so long now, you are beginning to sense that food and your weight (it’s all about YOU, aaack!) are where 98% of your emotions are currently (perilously!) anchored and emanating from? You use the word “panic.” Read my post on my thread of August 21: “Tiny changes. Sure maybe the food thrill is gone, but the panic is gone too, along with the wild weight swings.”

I think that sense of PANIC you are beginning to recognize is a huge little thing, a common thread among us addicted eaters. It’s something we don’t quite get about ourselves coming into this journey; it’s the last layer “underneath”, it’s where all the stuff about CONTROL and addiction comes in. The Coming Undone Place.

Whether we knew/understood it or not (which I think is essentially irrelevant—and can be unnecessarily distracting—especially in early recovery), as addicts we have HUGE control issues around ourselves and others, and we panic—overreact—when we sense anything we THINK we have a handle or an impact on slipping away.

We have a really hard time calming down without our medication(s), and aren’t your lowcarb medications what you are now struggling to remove (moderate??) from your life?

So I think it’s good that you can FEEL that panic now, more clearly, urgently. But it’s also THE crucial place to me—the Coming Undone place—for people who are drifting to goal. It is the turning point where we can—and most often will, we most often DO—start falling apart because we can’t deal with, we can’t abide, THE PANIC.

So Joy, I thought your statement, “Now I just need to learn to breathe” was uncannily prescient.

I think you (we all) do need to LEARN to breathe. It is a learning process, one that comes from DOing, by plain old boring experience. By continuing to abstain and thus continuing to let yourself—force yourself to—experience “the panic”, and just abide it...over and over and over. Doing nothing, EXCEPT putting your trust in the diet—one without your favorite medications—putting your unwavering efforts, the CONTROL if you will, into seeing that THAT happens consistently (a PLAN), so that you can slowly notice and appreciate the bigger, but subtle, differences of building a new life without medication.

Only then can you, over time, notice all that is better about the whole pattern—which, if you abide, will be essentially EVERYTHING, even though it is unlikely to be anything like how you expected or wanted the “after” of this journey to live like. That’s the stuff that we slowly have to come to terms with throughout what I see as this long retrofitting process.

If you don’t abide the panic, no matter how long, no matter how “well” you’ve done with this, that is, “stay on the diet”, most of it will go up in smoke, disappear--either gradually (f you let go bit-by-bit), or almost instantly (if you just go ahead and blow, in OWTHIMAW).

(See Arlene's thread for how long and hard she abided only to risk throwing it all away recently.)

I think you’re entering a new phase of pattern changing, even more important than the pattern you’ve already changed. This one is a new life pattern built around the new food pattern you’ve built. It’s not at all quick, I think it takes 3-5 years. It’s the place where we divorce our feelings from food and let them find new places to emanate from. It's the long phase where we realize that we don’t have to, that we cannot control or fix our feelings, and that ultimately we don’t need to. They will take care of themselves, they will just do what feelings will do, if we will just take care of the food.

So whadayathink Joy?

Adele (142 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 11+ years
Maintaining at goal 8+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

Last Edited on 1-Nov-2007 7:04 AM

I have a question, about the daily weighings. At what point in an upward trend do I say..."WHOAH, something is not right. It is time to DO something?"

For instance, I was 177.0 Sunday morning. Each day it's crept up a bit until I'm 179.8 this morning. Do I "breathe" and just let it continue to go UP? That's where my panic comes in.

How do I learn to abide, accept this? I guess, as someone who is maintaining, how much fluctuation do you allow yourself?

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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 185.8
GW - 25% body fat

For instance, I was 177.0 Sunday morning. Each day it's crept up a bit until I'm 179.8 this morning. Do I "breathe" and just let it continue to go UP? That's where my panic comes in.

Calmly (grin), rationally, objectively look at your diet. I haven’t looked at your diet myself (yet?) but I suspect the answers will be there. Mine always were/are.

On my goodness, I just looked at your diet. I think the (preliminary) answers ARE there.

Joy, in my opinion, you’re not there yet with the diet, so you’re not yet to the abiding place, you’re avoiding that. I see grains (corn?) and crap (vanilla protein powder, bourbon chicken, a bumblebar??), I see fruit, I see a lot of mayo and special category foods (esp. avocado, heavy cream), and half and half (which you say you ditched?) In essence, I see a complicated diet that most likely your body just can’t handle and thrive on. You’re not on the diet for CRLs (yet?), that’s where you need to start, and you may even need to pare from there, it’s way too soon to tell.

Your weight is bouncing around because you’re trying to find a way to moderate what I strongly suspect your body just can’t handle, no matter how much you want it to be the case. It’s trying to tell you but you’re not wanting to listen, to believe it (yet?) You’re thinking, perhaps, that you can exercise-bargain your way around this? That’s unlikely—that's not happening now, right?

How do I learn to abide, accept this? I guess, as someone who is maintaining, how much fluctuation do you allow yourself?

Well first I had to stop trying to negotiate with the facts of my body. Are you ready to change your diet or do you want to continue wearing yourself down and out by trying to change what you cannot?

Adele (142 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 11+ years
Maintaining at goal 8+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

(Adele, I can see you grinning over there...yeah, I can say emotionally tied now)

Then I went and worked out and mulled it over and over and over. You're right. I would have one thing pretty much every day. The protein powder is especially bad. The bumblebar in Seattle, especially bad. I did have half n half a couple times to dilute Charbuck's coffee....at least that's my excuse.

I'm still not compltely sold on some of the other items. Olives, avocado...I can understand the dairy for the lactose...in fact in discussing it with my Mom, she said as a baby I'd always throw up real milk, so she gave me soy milk.

I was thinking of corn as starchy veggie vs grain, but, you're right...I was slipping things in, using convenience/traveling as an excuse.

I'm retaining water like mad. In response to an ingredient in the protein powder, I'm sure. Protein blend: (whey protein concentrate, milk protein concentrate, ultra-filtered/micro-filtered whey protein isolate), fructose, natural cream flavor, natural & cream flavor, xanthan gum, cocoa, natural vanilla flavor, sodium chloride, maltodextrin, lecithin.

But it all boils down to me accepting this and surrendering to it. I'm still chewing on that. I'll get there....

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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 179.2
GW - 25% body fat

Ah Joy. (true GRIN)

Would you believe I thought of you first thing out of bed as I stepped on the scale this morning? (144, dammit!!) While I was enduring 5 hours with my more-crotchety-than-usual 90-year-old dad last evening, my inner thoughts were a lot about you. I spent time yesterday concerned about how you would take what I said, and worrying about how I didn’t answer your question about how I manage my own weight/daily weighings at goal, because I’m in a(nother) mini battle-place with that right now, and when I have time, I’ll write about that on my own thread.

Anyway, I’m glad you returned. This is challenging, I know I know I know. It still is for me. I don’t enjoy upsetting anyone, but if you cry a little, it could mean I’ve poked a little hole at a slightly deeper emotional level, and that’s—gulp—good. (And perhaps also good for one or two of the literally 100’s of lurkers we get every week here.)

I was not grinning when I wrote to you or saw your diet. Here’s what my feelings were: “Oh my goodness, she’s not even close, she’s saying one thing but eating another. Gosh, I read her wrong.” That’s what the “oh my goodness” was about. I thought you were readier than your diet indicated, and my last post to you had been based on that assumption. (But alas, we addicts CAN talk the talk, lol, we can pass the “written test”. It’s the walk where we falter.)

Yes it does boil down to surrendering, but you don’t, and you will not ever get there by chewing on it. Seen my essay on ruminative thinkers? Information You Don’t Need

You can’t get to the surrendering until you’ve ACCEPTED for a long time. And to accept, you have to have adopted “accepting behavior” (“the walk”) and maintained it for an excruciatingly long time (months, probably years), until you almost can’t stand it anymore, THEN—and here’s the crucial point—THEN you turn in the exact opposite direction from the direction you’ve always turned when you couldn’t stand this—“the diet”—anymore. You throw yourself even more completely INTO it instead of throwing it all out the window.

(Does that make any sense Joy?)

As someone who has, ostensibly, surrendered, let me be the first to acknowledge it’s no kind of perfect or permanent state. Many days/months/years—if not most—the surrender is in my behavior, not in my feelings. I’m not even close to blissful with this right now, it’s merely a whole lot better than the old way I tried to run (tether) myself and my life.

We don’t move on this with our brains, our ideas, with our knowledge, or by getting our feelings in any kind of alignment. Your feelings will never align, that’s not what they’re for or about. You’re trying to skip years here, you’re trying to skip “the walk”. (Doesn’t this harken us back to your telling question, the one where you wondered if we couldn’t just skip or find ways to minimize the emotional component of this food-life simplicity/purity nonsense?—grin.) There are no shortcuts, Cliff Notes, no Reader’s Digest Condensed version to this lifetime change-in-course!

I’m going to take another little risk here, because you’ve come back, you are trusting me that far. (Thank you again.) I say this as an observation, as an analogy, not a judgment decree. Joy, you’re still intoxicated. You can’t be trusted or “believed” yet, when it comes to almost any of this nitty-gritty journey stuff.

Are you ready to simplify your diet, are you ready to remove the methadone, to “come clean”? Are you ready to take all the risks (the initial ones are especially social) to begin feeling what the absence of food-commotion-complication feels like? It will take 1-2 weeks of abstinence to begin feeling it. And it will feel wonderful and it will feel terrible and all kinds of scary because it’s new to you and it’s....well, if/when you’re ready, how about you tell ME what it feels like?

Let me know by e-mail if you need help putting together an abstinent week.

Adele (144 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 11+ years
Maintaining at goal 8+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

Last Edited on 3-Nov-2007 5:19 AM

I had come down to about 174 pounds before Thanksgiving. However that was NOT an easy time. In order to get that I was exercising a LOT and eating around 1700-1900 calories a day. COMPLETELY hysterical and obsessive about food. Starving, I'll be honest, is how I felt. Physical belly growling HUNGER and coming to tears over it. I'll also say here publicly that I have also been suffering from skipping menses.

I had my body fat tested and was further disappointed that by less than 1% I'm still in the "Overweight" category. Yeah, less than 1%, but STILL in the overweight category. Not right smack in the middle of what is "deemed" by some person somewhere (who, in theory, should have better knowledge on what is "normal" than I) said what is "moderately lean." I have had to do some soul searching and, yes, some coming undone I suppose.

I made an appointment to see my regular doctor. She told me not to go under 175 lbs, that my irregular cycle is due to low body fat (for MY body, even if not by some scale) and that it would eventually work itself out. She had my hormones tested and my estrogen is low, but still within normal ranges.

I've been trying to come up with a way that I can continue to be active and maintain my weight. What I can't seem to find is actual consensus on how many calories I need to eat to support my exercise and still maintain. In the meantime I've pretty much thrown my hands up. In that place (the weekend of December 16), I had a weekend where I felt like I was walking a tight rope and began to falter. Try and Try as I did (using borderline foods like nuts and dairy), I couldn't keep from falling. I spent so much time trying to keep it all together, that my weight kept creeping up. I eventually fell...big time, but just for one day. 14 lbs later (8 of that was water--I've since shed). Excuses, excuses I know. Anyway, it's as if I fell, wallowed in my misery/debauchery (for the one day) and now my resolve is back and I'm well centered again. The very next day, in fact.

What I have NOT done since then was run. Or lift weights. I have done some yoga though. I'm not hungry. I'm not counting calories either. Carbs yes, calories no.

I'm not sure that I can do it your way, Adele. I'm not saying I'm going to return to the dairy. I agree those foods don't agree with me. I agree that I have no business eating NUTS. Ever. And, God help me, never to mix the two. I also agree that I shouldn't include processed meats/foods like bacon and sausage unless I can handle the 2-3 lb water gain I'll have the next day. But, I'm not sure I'm willing, to cut out all the foods like avocado, olives, fruits, and some of the other things you recommend. I'm not sure that I can do that for the long haul. I'm not yet sure that I NEED to do that. When I did it, yes, I got the low number on the scale. But, I also got other things I wasn't bargaining on.

I guess I haven't been active here because I'm just not sure. I do participate on another board daily, for support and accountability. I just am unsure about being here.
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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 180.2 31% body fat
GW - 25% body fat

I re-read your entire thread, and wonder if you have? Can you see how thrilled you were, how fantastic you felt on August 21, after you had completely abstained for just a short amount of time? Can you see how happy your body was with that? Can you see how you SAID you would wait a month before testing dairy, but ended up adding it back the very next weekend? And that your newly-honeymooning body railed in response?

It seems to me that since that time you’ve been, in one way or another, fighting the truths of what you learned about your body in that brief period of abstinence; it seems you’ve been bargaining—with gold standard abstinence as a new chip in the pile?—ever since. You’ve been going all-or-nothing with borderline stuff, with exercise, with medical measurements/tests, with calories, with a mini blow-out, and now with carbs. Sure your weight is down from where you came in here, but overall it sure doesn’t seem to be going well, it seems like a giant fight. I can’t imagine you’re going to want or be able to hold on, long-term, to a behavior pattern that nets you all this frustration.

You also seem confused, and (understandably!) angry at all the conflicting authorities and societal expectations, all the “rules” and labels coming at you from the medical/government establishment, from the various lowcarb plans—and even from ME? You don’t know if you can do it “my way”? This isn’t really MY way. I’m trying to advocate for and to give a voice to your body. I think it’s trying to tell you in the only ways it can that it simply can’t do things “your way”, probably not the government’s way or the medical establishment’s way either—although in fairness your Dr. seems to be trying to gently steer you away from your relentless fight to ACE all the (insane, seemingly contradictory!) tests and measures of what will DEEM you acceptable to everyone? She clearly sees you’re good enough Joy.

Seems to me that by trying SO hard to reject even the notion of sustained abstinence, despite how wonderful you find yourself feeling after even short stabs at it, despite turning to it to “sober up” when you’ve lost control, I’m concerned that you’re in the process of narrowing your behavior to ricocheting between abstinence and total burnout/blowout. This is the most common path to eventual self destruction I’ve seen happen fast (in a matter of a few weeks), and happen very slowly (over several years) to emotional eaters who get to, or very close to goal. I wonder if your doctor isn’t beginning to sense the same thing from your panic?

You didn’t ask for any suggestions from me but you do say: I've been trying to come up with a way that I can continue to be active and maintain my weight. What I can't seem to find is actual consensus on how many calories I need to eat to support my exercise and still maintain. In the meantime I've pretty much thrown my hands up.

Here’s my 2¢:

Try to calm and gentle down. Put down your hands—with the sledgehammers you use on yourself, on your own foundation—just for now. (I wish I could give you a reassuring hug.) You’ve had tremendous success, you ARE absolutely, unquestionably a success with the first part of the journey, you have accomplished something very few seem able to do. I’m trying to help you keep from blowing up your own project, from kicking down your own carefully built but quivering tower of blocks.

Get your abstinence back and do whatever it takes to HOLD THAT—for 6 weeks. Eat fully and consistently to your BMR + 250 calories, no breaks, no bargains. As you’ve seen, calorie deficits and hunger make abstinence essentially impossible—keeping calories depressed is just another bargain. I really think this is the “consensus” you claim to be looking for that you don’t want to see. I could be wrong, but I really doubt that as an addict, you will ever be able to find that “balance” with lowcarb borderline foods/calories/carbs that will keep you at or under the weight where you entered here.

Your brief abstinence experience SHOULD have shown you that you absolutely, positively will not gain weight if you remain abstinent and eating at your BMR + 250 calories. Your weight will most likely begin to drift down again if you do this. But please please please don’t worry about that now. Just continue to look at it once a day.

Exercise 30 minutes a day, 6 days a week. No more, no less. A walk, a run, yoga. 30 minutes, not hard. Calm and gentle down your exercising as well.

And report back here as often or as little as you feel the need. I think it could be so valuable for you if you didn’t change a thing until you’ve built some experience, and we’ve had some exchanges with you in a sustained abstinent state—with the methadone (and thus a whole lot of the fight) out of your system.

But if for some reason you just aren’t up to that now, I’d strongly advise you to stay present—and completely truthful/forthcoming—wherever you’re hanging out now. Force yourself to stay some kind of publicly accountable with “full disclosure” about exactly where you are in front of people. I made that rule for myself (that I include my exact weight with every post) and I am so glad I stuck to it on the list I was on when I was at your place in this journey. It really helped. (I decided at the beginning, in 1996, that I was done lying about this to myself and others.)

It took me a really LONG time to decide to stop the same fighting Joy, 21 months of trying to do this like you are now. And maybe you really just need to spend some more time in this infernal, internal battle with yourself until you see the futility. The worry with that is that we’ve seen many (most?) folks put on serious weight, and eventually throw in the towel as a result of this perpetual fight.

As I’ve said here before I’m not sure at all that I don’t fall into some authority’s “overweight” categories—at 5’4” weighing between 140-145 pounds. I haven’t had my bodyfat tested in a long time. I don’t look at those anymore. My weight is stable, the life-long food obsession is gone, I know how to abide uncomfortable emotions; I’ve reconciled that I will always “want” a little, but that I’m friggin’ good enough. It sure sounds like, from what your doctor told you, that you are too. That’s a surprisingly difficult concept for addicts to concede.

Adele (143 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 11+ years
Maintaining at goal 8+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

Last Edited on 4-Jan-2008 7:42 AM

You’re absolutely right in that I cannot sustain this “fight” for very long. I’m scared to death of regaining, but, for some reason I behave in ways that contradict that fear. I do hold myself accountable on the other board I participate in. I’m very frank with them (and myself, and people in my offline life) about when I eat off the plan that works for me. It’s one of the ways I kind of police myself.

“carefully built but quivering tower of blocks” is exactly how I feel, and have been feeling ever since I got to goal. A couple years ago, I took a high ropes course for the first time. When I got involved in it, I’d never even heard of it, so had no idea what to expect. I was motivated, though, and determined to do it, scary as it was. When I finally got to the top of the telephone pole and stood on top of it (basically on a disc the size of a dinner plate) that was terrifying. When the pole started wobbling and I had to balance, oh so carefully, and force myself to calm and center…that’s the way I feel right now. I’m trying to push down the panic and find my center. I’m done putting one hand in front of the other, I’m done climbing, I’m at the top and now I just have to stay there.
I still fall into the ‘stinkin thinkin’ of how it’s “not fair” that I can’t eat even low carb desserts. This only happens when I’m in a social situation where other low carbers are eating that stuff like it’s going out of style. I have to remind myself that I choose to not eat that stuff and that I have gotten to goal. They, on the other hand, are FAR, FAR from goal and probably will never get there either with their eating behaviors. I still get jealous though.
I’m so glad the holidays are over. I am going to scale back the exercise. I didn’t do anything at all last week except that I was much more active in my daily activities since I was home from work (and not sitting at a computer). I did a 45 minute spin class today. Have done yoga a couple times this week. No running. I’ve got a pulled muscle too, so its best that I don’t run anyway. I will eat no dairy, no nuts. Meats and veggies and fats and just try to be quiet.
I had my Resting Metabolic Rate tested as well as my body fat. My RMR is 2117 calories. I need to make sure to eat that every day, and more on days when I exercise. You’re right, hunger makes abstinence impossible.
I’m fighting to keep this WOL, Adele. Not fighting to get my old life back, even sometimes it might appear that way in the bad decisions I make on occasion. I appreciate your candor and

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Joy (179 today)
SW - 268
CW - 179.0
GW - 175

I hope you’ll check in with an update soon.

Adele (144 this morning)
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168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 11+ years
Maintaining at goal 8+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

I did follow through and run the half marathon in Miami. I feel really, really good about doing that. In fact, I did it with an atkins-friend I met on the other message board. It was a great experience. Two weeks later, I ran a 15K too. My weight fluctuates between 175 and 180 lbs. I think a lot of it has to do with female hormonal stuff. I seem to gain just before and at the beginning of TOM (which is to be expected) but also right around ovulation too. The good thing is that my cycle has been on schedule for the last 2 months. That's very good.

No binges since the last one I reported here. I've been mostly good about not eating dairy and processed meats. There have been a couple times when I was in a difficult situation and made the best choices I could which meant eating some cheese, or some deli turkey. At least now I know what is going to happen and can expect it and not get too freaked out about it. My husband and family want me to go out to dinner in a restaurant with them on occasion. No matter where I go, if I eat in a restaurant, I'll gain 2-4 lbs the next day. I really dread going out to eat these days...but if I tell my DH that, I think his head will pop off. So, I just grin and bear it and work the rest of the month trying to get that water back off.

Whenever I have a gain on the scale, I try to cut back on calories again (to about 1800). Oh, I'll lose weight back down to 175, but I get sooooooooooo hungry and lethargic. I just can't sustain that low of calories. I feel good around 2300-2400 calories a day.

I'm beginning to think my body really wants to be 180 lbs. I can BINGE and not go much higher than 180lbs, or I can make one little slip up and go to right about the same weight. Not sure what to make of that. Don't think I'm trying to justify a binge...I absolutely do NOT want to go there. I've been feeling the want to binge, but have resisted so far. Maybe that's the hunger and hormones talking. Maybe the hunger was due in part to the hormones? I don't know. My tanita body fat scale is giving me readings of 24-28% body fat though.

I've got a lot of skin. I bet that accounts for at least 5-10 lbs or maybe more. My marathon photo shows my inner thigh skin in motion as I crossed the finish line. Yuck. Oh well, I'm not even interested in any kind of surgery in that area because of the horrible stuff I've seen on TV. So, I'll just have to live with it.

I started my Masters degree in January too. The week before the half marathon, as a matter of fact. It has been stressful, really stressful. But, in some ways, I think it's really kept me more structured. I don't have as much time to be as active as I'd like to be, but it also doesn't allow me much time for mindless eating (even of legal foods).

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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 177.6
GW - 25% body fat

What an inspiration, the marathon you did in Miami. My daughter who is also locarbing (and I am grateful to have a partner in the family) did the full marathon at that same race I believe. I understand your struggles and sometimes I wonder if my body will tell me how much it wants to weigh or do I tell it?!? I do know that my drug of choice (sugar/sweets) is something I have to stay away from and many times, when offered just a bite of it by others, I know there is no choice there unless I want to be face down in the middle of a binge.

Denise H

HW 230+ (size 26 was too tight)
CW 149 (this morning 153)
GW 130 (was also size 10 but some of my clothes are size 8 now so I don't know!)

I don't know Adele, if this is my coming undone. I have been "going guardrail to guardrail" with my eating from abstinence to complete (and more frequent) full blown binges, as you predicted. It seems that I'm finding more and more "triggers" in seemingly benign foods, such as pork fat and chicken skin. My weight is right back up to where I started here last August. Which is, technically, my original goal weight. I don't have dark circles under my eyes (as I did at 174), but I don't have a flat tummy either.

I'm more emotional then EVER before (and that is saying a lot because the truth is I'm emotionally immature, and a complete drama queen). I'm more stressed out than EVER before, probably because of the frequency of the binges.

Yet, I'm trying to get myself to a more public and honest place with my eating. Using Fitday, even if the story it shares is bad, and making that fitday public. I've never stopped weighing daily, but I've certainly watched that number on the scale go UP, over the last couple months.

School is a major stressor, and consumes an enormous amount of time. I ask myself why I do it. Well, I'm at the end of my promotability in my job unless I get a masters degree. My boss, my parents, sister they all are supportive and encouraging me to do it as well. I should have done it years ago. Yet, do I *really* want it, or am I doing it because I should? I thought that I could do it as something to distract me from obsessing over my diet. Yet, it has added stresses that make me want to binge even more. I want to numb myself with the food. Which stresses me out because of those feelings. I'm a mess.

I don't exercise. Period.

I vascillate from being very proud of myself for what I accomplish, to feeling like I can't stand myself for lack of willpower, feeling like a failure, not being able to accomplish everything I set out to do. I don't think there are very many other people who can stand to be around me these days either. Yet, in all honesty, there are only a few I want to be around. That's another story altogether though.

Each time I do binge (whether on "legal" foods or "illegal foods") when i do return I am even more strict. Yet, that's probably not a bad thing. I am getting cleaner with my diet in an attempt to break this cycle.

I said in my journal on the other site how I know I needed a "butt kicking" and knew exactly where to come to get it. So, here I am.

I also have gone to a couple OA meetings in effort to find something to help.

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Joy
SW - 268
CW - 185.8
GW - 25% body fat
http://fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJournals.html?Owner=ride2joy

Some of what you are struggling with I see my daughter struggling with as well. She also accomplished something major in her life regarding a marathon in Miami for her company earlier this year and that being her high point, I read your post and see her struggle as well. I miss her being straight with the eating because she and I shared that and when we were at family gatherings, always made sure we had safe food there.

OA helped me to realize I had a food addiction and most importantly to sugar products and that I was and still am (but in remission currently) an emotional eater with food being my drug that I would use to comfort myself. I could eat myself into a stupor in an attempt to numb myself. I stay abstinent one day at a time but I am not perfect as you can see in my last post on my own thread. While I do not go to OA meetings any longer, I have found that it did save my life, got me to see clearly that I am an addict...always will be and only consider each clean day another day of remission. I proved I can never take just one bite when I went on that binge while out of the country. The good thing is when I hit the U.S. I did get my sobriety (so to speak) back and let it go, did not beat myself up about it, took it as a lesson, and am taking each day one at a time and am grateful I am straight again. I know I can not eat just a little illegal food, that once I start, I can not stop.

Start posting on whatever you choose to but post, because writing is one of the tools that helps us.

Hang in there. I am sure when Adele surfaces, she will have some of her great wisdom to impart and it will help you.

Denise

HW 230+ (size 26 too tight)
CW 149 (this morning 153)
GW 130 (? am at my goal size so don't know)
----------
Denise H

Well Joy, I won’t kick your butt, but I won’t pat your head and tell you it will all be okay either. I will tell you very truthfully (again) that chances are it WON’T be okay, not unless you “man up” and decide to do the work to make it so, no “chances” about it. And I think anyone who’s been online lowcarbing as long as I have would readily, if begrudgingly, acknowledge the veracity of this. I WISH it weren’t so, I imagine we all do. Then, I guess, I could add a sigh.

Joy, I re-read your thread...again. I wish I had more or something different to offer you (and Laina and Mary and others who are struggling at the beginning retrofitting journey...) Although it’s taken me almost 3 years to build to this, and to figure out what was lacking at the sites I was before (and pissing people off along the way (grin)), this is the part I think other sites simply can’t effectively acknowledge and explore, it’s just too much. This journey is too much for one book, one single class and classroom. This is the graduate level work.

There is no more. Your body will thrive on Diet A which is not the diet you want it to be. You don’t even really WANT it to be Diet B, the one that got you to “pretty good”, right? Your recent behavior choices say that you are, at least at times, wanting to dump it all in the river because you didn’t—and can’t—get to your version of perfect...so you could, maybe, stop?...at least sometimes??

I think the thing about addicted eaters and lowcarb is that lowcarb success leads us to—it throws the covers off of—the deeper stuff, the emotional stuff. And if we’re not ready to face it and change our behavior...AFTER we thought we had changed ENOUGH!!...usually a whole lot more than just eating the easy, fun (and, c’mon, bargain-laden) diet we envisioned when we first signed on, then lowcarb ends up becoming a tool in the progressive escalation of our addiction. And escalate is what we addicts are wont to do with our drugs of choice, especially when we’re upset and things aren’t going the way we think they SHOULD!...which they rarely do with us and lowcarb.

See the circle, the giant conundrum?

I think lowcarb exacerbates addictive eating more readily than lowfatting our way down because unlike lowfatting, where we must force ourselves to abide hunger and caloric deprivation, lowcarb allows our body to normalize without the need to constantly fight those primal urges. So eating lowcarb—at least adequate calorie lowcarb(which, by the way, I noted was something you’ve been fighting recently)—we calm down, we begin letting our guard down, we begin to feel physically satiated and comfortable, often for the first time in our lives. And our body still—“miraculously”—improves! It all goes unbelievably well at first, right?

But while this is happening, we are also falling “out of practice” with fighting and suffering to lose weight and be normal, acceptable. We might even feel some new inner support for our notion that our idealized version of perfect is possible—“I feel so good I can do anything!” And then when, inevitably, this starts to not be as golden as we first thought, when we get to the stalls and yeast walls, and we get disappointed and angry to the point of falling apart, and we start waggling our way back with our former coping behaviors (be it lowering our calories, or going back to bingeing or the infernal combination of both), it changes what we binge on, it has changed how we simply can’t go back to “starving” anymore, we keep re-starting with high-fat lowcarb then blowing it with sugar which adds weight at an astronomical rate—I’ve called it “freight-train-regain”.

And kablooey we go. Again. Even after years of what turned out to be temporary abstinence.

You are pissed (understandably). You’ve done all this work, this big project, and it hasn’t taken you where you wanted or expected. You came in here obsessively exercising and now you’ve totally quit exercising. You came in wanting to fine-tune, that even worked briefly, but...I think it was too much work... You came in wanting, not normal...which you MIGHT have even been when you came in (33% bodyfat is hardly disgraceful!). I think at least part of you came in looking for a (perfect?) ENDING to this project.

There’s no end, there’s no done, there’s no perfect, there’s no magic.

Christina has been fighting like you are beginning to for ... well I it’s been a painfully long time. She really is one of the rarest I’ve come across (assuming she makes it this time)... most go down like drowning victims—one or two restart “proclamation posts” (sometimes over several years) then fade to gone. We’ve all seen a whole lot more of those than Christinas.

I know that’s not what you want. It’s not what anyone wants. You have to DO what you want, not want what you have to do.

You have to kick your own butt, honey, hold your own feet to the fire.

How about you stop hiding and keep us posted Joy?

Adele (143 this morning)
----------
168/140, Size 16/8
Lowcarbing 11+ years
Maintaining at goal 8+ years
Moderator/Owner
adele@leadwiththediet.com

Last Edited on 20-May-2008 5:37 AM